tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post2766903572213011065..comments2024-03-28T09:55:42.123+00:00Comments on Capitalists@Work: Panic is an Ugly Spectacle. Bring On MerkelCityUnslickerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15929544047783163175noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-89831414087273572532016-06-07T19:45:31.479+01:002016-06-07T19:45:31.479+01:00An intervention from Merkel is more likely to help...An intervention from Merkel is more likely to help “leave” than “remain”. Firstly, because a German leader telling Britons about their future in Europe will push a lot of emotional buttons among some sections of the electorate. Secondly, because Merkel is now so strongly associated with the migrant crisis that it would only remind people of the “leave” campaign’s claims about unrestricted immigration from the EU. The only way Merkel could help “remain” would be if her intervention provoked such a furious response from some “leave” supporters that the reaction became the story. But since “remain” have been smearing “leave” as xenophobic little-Englanders from the very beginning, most people would probably dismiss the story as more of the same so it wouldn’t have much effect.AndrewZnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-89198526333326302462016-06-07T13:58:13.509+01:002016-06-07T13:58:13.509+01:00Great comments and a proper discussion here, and n...Great comments and a proper discussion here, and no personal attacks! What is going on?<br /><br />I don't have any children yet, but I am appalled by the nonsense on both sides. My once-high opinion of Dave and George has crashed. In November Dave said that the UK could thrive outside the EU, now he says that leaving would put a bomb under the economy. Was he lying then or is he lying now? Does he think we can't see the scenery moving?<br /><br />George says we will be poorer in the long-run, but his assumption is that he will be incompetent if we vote to Leave.<br /><br />On the other side Boris and Gove claim to be pro-immigration and yet are hammering the anti-immigration drum. <br /><br />I am voting to Leave, for various reasons, but O don't really mind if we stay. What I do mind is how our domestic politics has been totally crashed by this discussion. It could have been so much more high-minded...Blue Eyeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16556174219724957585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-207434204581820802016-06-07T11:34:38.695+01:002016-06-07T11:34:38.695+01:00Re the £350m a day 'cost' of the EU: look ...Re the £350m a day 'cost' of the EU: look at it this way - if you belong to a club that costs £X in subscription, but you can go and have a free dinner there once a week if you like, plus they put on a free bus that takes you to the hospital and local shops, what is the cost to you? Is it the actual cash outlay, or the cash outlay minus the value of the 'free' services you could avail yourself of? What if you don't really want a bus service, and don't fancy their cooking? You might prefer the cash cost to be less up front and pay for your own transport and meals. <br /><br />Don't forget one of the largest amounts of money the UK gets back from the EU is farm subsidies - can one honestly say that there are not more popular ways of spending several billion pounds in the UK than giving it to farmers (and I am a farmer)?<br /><br />If you don't decide how money is spent, its not really yours, regardless of whether someone else decides to let you benefit from some of it. Anyone who thinks otherwise can give me all their money and I will give it back to them straight away. Honest, I will. Well for a while anyway, there are costs to running this club you know........Jimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-63424777968631514402016-06-07T11:34:37.140+01:002016-06-07T11:34:37.140+01:00"You forget the pope - we have not heard from..."You forget the pope - we have not heard from him yet."<br /><br />He just wants the Falklands surrendered.deariemenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-11879430634607123632016-06-07T11:09:37.968+01:002016-06-07T11:09:37.968+01:00YouGov survey notes that folks thinks the politico...YouGov survey notes that folks thinks the politicos will still try to stuff us even if we vote Leave. I have to say, I would be very surprised if they don't, and am currently investing in pitchforks, piano wires and tumbrils. <br /><br />One of the huge bonuses of the referendum is that it is making plain that most of us are sick to death of these shysters running the shop - here and in Brussels. <br /><br />https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/08/20/eu-referendum-no-mean-no/<br /><br />Vote LEAVE. Vote GET STUFFED. Elby the Beserkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15060519682739666145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-89373240333118148222016-06-07T10:37:13.411+01:002016-06-07T10:37:13.411+01:00Getting a bit nervous here.Getting a bit nervous here.James Highamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14525082702330365464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-7858527787752722872016-06-07T10:02:44.565+01:002016-06-07T10:02:44.565+01:00ND
You forget the pope - we have not heard from hi...ND<br />You forget the pope - we have not heard from him yet.<br /><br />andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311993288675111834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-17390929518848319502016-06-07T09:34:29.700+01:002016-06-07T09:34:29.700+01:00As well as in despair, I'm now confused as the...As well as in despair, I'm now confused as there appears to be two schools of thought here. <br /><br />The first is a total exit for the EU and never return. The second is vote Leave to get a better deal as the EU is not bad, it's just not fair.<br /><br />If the former are in the majority, then it will all be over on 24th and life can get back to normal. If it is the latter, it appears there will be some form of EU groundhog day when the arguments will be going on ad nauseam.<br /><br />Should I slip my wrists now?<br />Nil Desperandumnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-18155682206896240632016-06-07T07:35:04.697+01:002016-06-07T07:35:04.697+01:00there aren't any big guns left to be fired
Ke...<i>there aren't any big guns left to be fired</i><br /><br /><b>Kev</b> - I very much agree with you that there are more deeply unhelpful Events in the pipeline for the Remainders to try to spin away: but no more big guns?<br /><br />OK, they've enlisted all the personnel they can drum up (Ali and Mandela being dead), but Guns are exactly what they've got<br /><br />if (as I expect) ISIS lets rip at Euro2016, you watch what happens then Nick Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670594203660051701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-37243926918739702572016-06-07T06:13:22.618+01:002016-06-07T06:13:22.618+01:00Andrew - Mr Cameron didn't ask for direct rest...Andrew - Mr Cameron didn't ask for direct restrictions on free movement because Mrs Merkel told him not to even go there. Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-35014738322637387912016-06-07T06:01:14.854+01:002016-06-07T06:01:14.854+01:00Andrew. A few days ago I asked a well regarded com...Andrew. A few days ago I asked a well regarded commenter what he thought of the £350m quibble and he sent me this reply:<br /><br />"In my view the Treasury select committee was wrong to home in on the mere mechanics of payment and criticise the £350 million a week figure because the refunds from previous years are deducted from the payments for the current year before they are made, arguing that therefore the money never leaves the country."<br /><br />https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_rebate#Calculation_and_mechanics<br /><br />Half way down the page. It is complex and boring and that's because it's meant to be complex and boring. <br /><br />The PM didn't just fail to directly restrict free movement in his recent negotiations - he failed to limit the obviously unfair (to us) benefits that act as a draw to free movement. <br /><br />This on the eve of a referendum demanded by our people because of immigration. When he should have been at his strongest. <br /><br />This issue is all about sovereignty. Our right to decide for ourselves. Migration has drawn attention to our loss of sovereignty and it is now taboo to bang on about migration - but you try selling a concept to people, so instead it's '£350m' and 'NHS' on the side of the battle bus, to take it to the front line of the Remainers' campaign. <br /><br />Leaves' don't have the biggest problem with the truth - Remain do and the public seem to have rumbled it according to polls. <br /><br />I can't see a reversal in Leaves' advances because there aren't any big guns left to be fired and bad news from the Med (and now the Channel) is just going to keep on coming. <br /><br />Anyone who is intending to vote remain ought to be doing so enthusiastically and ought to be at least as familiar with EU politics and the characters in it as our own. The EU is not in a steady state or finished form - it has a lot of changes to undergo yet and thus far it is not going well. A leap in the dark to stay. <br />Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-35877319622301870452016-06-07T03:31:44.263+01:002016-06-07T03:31:44.263+01:00What all the EU elite do not seem to realise is th...What all the EU elite do not seem to realise is that the majority of the population of Europe is getting pissed off with their antics.Hence the rise in the smaller and generally more extreme parties.Those governing, whether elected or appointed, should remember and take lessons from history, if you piss off enough people for long enough, they get violent,and it never ends well for those at the top. Just ask Marie Antoinette . Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-87563311447530991252016-06-07T03:17:34.286+01:002016-06-07T03:17:34.286+01:00EK, v.v. good report
In the committees words on t...EK, v.v. good report<br /><br />In the committees words on the 350m pw claim<br /><br />...Vote Leave has subsequently placed the £350m figure on its campaign bus, and on much of its recent campaign literature. The public should discount this claim. Vote Leave’s persistence with it is deeply problematic. It sits very awkwardly with its promises to the Electoral Commission to work in a spirit that reflects its “very significant responsibility” and the “gravity of the choice facing the British people”<br /><br />my interpretation is - it is a bare faced lie that they persist in using.<br /><br />On your 4,700 claim<br /><br /> Indeed, the limitations of the Treasury’s approach are exposed by some counter-intuitive results from their analysis, buried in<br />the appendices, such as the finding that EU membership does not act as a significant draw for inward investment from outside the EU. The Treasury is, however, clear about how the £4,300 figure is derived<br /><br />The recommendation is that the chancellor should have said that the likely reduction in household income will be in a range of 3,200 to 5,400<br /><br />my interpretation is - a bit dodgy, but not completely out of line with other mainstream studies on the same issue.<br /><br />There is a nice picture on pg 19 showing the various estimates and they are overwhelmingly indicating a loss of income.<br /><br />On access deals post brexit<br /><br />So far, free movement has been a non-negotiable part of the single market and EU membership. Just as Boris Johnson and others are almost certainly mistaken to think that the UK could retain unfettered access to EU goods and services markets while ending free movement after leaving the EU, so the Prime Minister was almost certainly mistaken–as is indicated by the contents of the new settlement–to have concluded at the outset of the negotiations that he could succeed in substantially restricting free movement while remaining in the EU. <br /><br />my interpretation is - no, they wont let us.<br /><br />Underneath it all, it is the russian approach to politics. <br />You start with a weak hand, so you put forwards barefaced lies, when called out, call the others liars too, add some personal insults and strawman arguments.<br />After a while all the public hear is people shouting abuse at each other and appealing to the public's baser emotions, no-one believes anything.<br />You now have about a 50% chance.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311993288675111834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-78772101333007581212016-06-06T22:38:22.269+01:002016-06-06T22:38:22.269+01:00Andrew - Another big lie from Remain is that "...Andrew - Another big lie from Remain is that "9 out of ten economists say that Brexit will be bad for the UK economy."<br /><br />https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/3739/Economists-Views-on-Brexit.aspx#gallery%5Bm%5D/0/<br /><br />Well this shows that only 17% of the 3000 odd economists invited to participate bothered to reply. <br /><br />But the biggest lie of all is by Cameron himself. Only a year ago he told us that he'd campaign for Brexit if he didn't get the deal he wanted, yet today it's "Brexit will put a bomb under our economy."Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-50960339111689794012016-06-06T21:17:51.878+01:002016-06-06T21:17:51.878+01:00Nil Desperandum - Michael Gove was adopted by a fi...Nil Desperandum - Michael Gove was adopted by a fish plant manager and his laboratory assistant wife. Hardly a privileged start. <br /><br />(Gove was brilliant against Faisal Islam)<br /><br />Nigel Farage was raised by a single mum and Priti Patel is the daughter of Ugandan refugees. Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-48629006270180110132016-06-06T21:08:18.408+01:002016-06-06T21:08:18.408+01:00Andrew - Not even the BBC claims to know what deal...Andrew - Not even the BBC claims to know what deal would be struck as regards access to the single market post Brexit. So how do you ?<br /><br />http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36270203<br /><br />Last year we had a £68bn trade deficit with the EU so are in a strong negotiating position. <br /><br />https://fullfact.org/economy/tax-gap-migration-and-trade-deficit-prime-ministers-questions-factchecked/Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-86485947467108745442016-06-06T20:45:44.286+01:002016-06-06T20:45:44.286+01:00Andrew 12.23
The £350m claim is correct. It is th...Andrew 12.23<br /><br />The £350m claim is correct. It is the gross amount per ONS figures. The rebate is not guaranteed and it is granted to us with strings. And then we must put the EU flag on projects to publicise the munificence of the EU - to the extent that Wales and the managers of The Eden Project honestly think that the money comes from the EU and not the British taxpayer.<br /><br />A big lie is the £4700 impact on households by Remain on pages 18/19 of this House of Commons Treasury Committee report: "Roger Bootle described the figures that come from such analyses as '...verging on the intellectually dishonest' "<br /><br />A range of figures should have been presented rather than a hard and fast number. <br /><br />See the full statement here:<br /><br />http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmtreasy/122/122.pdf<br /><br />Had Boris been racist towards the leader of the free world we can guarantee that he would have been prosecuted for it. If not then we must presume innocence. With crime there is no 'borderline' about it. You either are a criminal or you aren't and commenting on what might motivate a politician is a perfectly valid (if imprudent) thing to do. Especially when he's just threatened the citizens of your country. Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-40022317434015725442016-06-06T20:06:46.457+01:002016-06-06T20:06:46.457+01:00The same impulse that makes Americans vote for The...The same impulse that makes Americans vote for The Donald will make people here vote for Brexit --- sod the lot of them. As Bill says, there will be a serious EU offer on the day after a Leave vote, and another referendum to endorse it.<br /><br />As for John Major, his credibility as an economic forecaster was destroyed on Black Wednesday 1992 --- and the same goes for the usual suspects (CBI, FT, LSE, etc) who all said it was vital to remain in the ERM, and later said we should join the Euro.DJKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-58626286403916111232016-06-06T19:32:22.570+01:002016-06-06T19:32:22.570+01:00" I feel sorry for people with principles lik..." I feel sorry for people with principles like Major and Farage"<br /><br />I didn't see Major piping up about lies when the Remain team came up with the '£4300 worse off' statistic. <br /><br />Major has no more principles than any of the other pro-EU traitors. It was him that got us into this mess in the first place by forcing through the Maastricht Treaty - that was where the EU changed from a trade body to a prototype State. Jimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-38522332529541866122016-06-06T19:31:15.968+01:002016-06-06T19:31:15.968+01:00I decided to leave years before we were lied to by...I decided to leave years before we were lied to by Cameron. I suffered the Grocer's heinous lies in the seventies as well, but I was much younger then.<br /><br />My county is overrun with problems being closest to the continent, and I'm fed up with every Tomas, Dich and Hari coming here first and buggering up my roads and Dover in particular. And I don't even live there!<br /><br />And I'm 69 next month, and I want my grandchildren to have a country with something to be proud of, not a lousy EU passport, run by unelected idiots.<br /><br />And another thing...<br /><br />And bollocks to the EU trade issues, they're all crappily presented and untrue. And stuff the BBC as well, they're so bad at wanting to remain in the sort of environment we all really loathe.Scrobs.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12942449871600526680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-71015042742906333892016-06-06T19:07:41.957+01:002016-06-06T19:07:41.957+01:00dearieme - I wonder, if you are right abt Cameron,...dearieme - I wonder, if you are right abt Cameron, whether he might (just might) be exactly the right person to carry out post-Brexit negotiations ...<br /><br /> ... nah<br /><br /><br />Nick Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670594203660051701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-60095234993354497832016-06-06T18:25:34.311+01:002016-06-06T18:25:34.311+01:00Here's the real gen. Cameron thinks we should...Here's the real gen. Cameron thinks we should leave.<br /><br />Threats and blackmail, however, from the EU and USA have obliged him to claim otherwise. The hysterical shrieking from his camp is just his way of letting us know that he believes not a word of his case. It must be frustrating for him that so many of us have failed to interpret his frantic signalling correctly.deariemenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-47560422448308547042016-06-06T17:56:06.508+01:002016-06-06T17:56:06.508+01:00Andrew, I am curious that you do not think that th...Andrew, I am curious that you do not think that the Remain team have just been parading a stream of bullshit/lies. They are no more factual than the Brexiteers.Graemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11007306140530173428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-79463889896364081722016-06-06T17:09:05.254+01:002016-06-06T17:09:05.254+01:00I find the Remainiacs collective meltdown a bit pu...I find the Remainiacs collective meltdown a bit puzzling. It's obvious that we won't actually leave - there's no majority for it in Parliament and Whitehall will sabotage any attempt in that direction even if someone tries. So what's the problem? If we vote in, they have their way and if we vote out they still have their way.<br /><br />"A successful Leave vote on the 23rd will only result in the start of fresh proposals from the Eu for a much better UK deal on the 24th."<br /><br />Well, you are a lot closer to this than I am, however, my impression is that the EU, and their UK cronies, will simply re-double their efforts to fabricate "consent" with absolutely no concessions of any kind. So we are more likely to see something like: a deliberately orchestrated stream of economic bad news (with a large side order of BBC I-told-you-so); gerrymandering the electorate to make it more EU friendly (eg lower the voting age to 16); and lots of finger-wagging from Brussels, Washington, the IMF and the rest, that any and every crisis that flares up in the world after the 23rd has been caused by the Brexit vote.<br /><br />I'm still voting out though.Y Ddraig Gochnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-43035693238748507002016-06-06T14:41:39.740+01:002016-06-06T14:41:39.740+01:00I'm still voting out. Because no harm can come...I'm still voting out. Because no harm can come from it.<br />A successful Leave vote on the 23rd will only result in the start of fresh proposals from the Eu for a much better UK deal on the 24th.<br /><br />They won't want to. But will have to.<br />And the market shakes and economic dip will convince enough to vote 'stay' on the second referendum on the new, improved, EU membership of 2017.<br /><br />Bill Quango MPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861116614665461655noreply@blogger.com