tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post2803196468718245246..comments2024-03-28T09:55:42.123+00:00Comments on Capitalists@Work: The Blair shadowCityUnslickerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15929544047783163175noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-1242765589140500072013-08-31T18:55:40.134+01:002013-08-31T18:55:40.134+01:00It appears Blair's shadow is even longer and m...It appears Blair's shadow is even longer and much darker than we thought.<br /><br />Bill Quango MPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861116614665461655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-26248266445238362182013-08-31T18:24:19.519+01:002013-08-31T18:24:19.519+01:00Excellent post, Bill, and I believe the most accur...Excellent post, Bill, and I believe the most accurate analysis of the situation that I have seen.<br /><br />But whether all politicians are liars or not (I tend to think they are, but passing on...) I still don't think we have a dog in this fight, I am still not convinced that Assad did it (why would he, when it's the only thing certain to cause the US to intervene against him? Evil he may be, but surely not stupid), and I still think any military adventure on our part would just make things worse - if Assad falls he will be replaced by Islamist nutjobs who will be even worse for us and our interests. These are the reasons 80% + of British people want no part of it. Cameron is out of touch as well as a bad party manager.Weekend Yachtsmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04262853091154005651noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-27504906485946743542013-08-30T21:59:45.159+01:002013-08-30T21:59:45.159+01:00BQ said: "Same with Syria. Western forces are...BQ said: "Same with Syria. Western forces aren't planning going near the place with foot soldiers. Just standoff weapons fired from outside Syrian airspace or waters."<br /><br />Is that supposed to be better?<br /><br />My MP said that he does "not support a military strike in Syria" yet goes on to state " I would support enforcing a no-fly zone". This is contradictory - a no-fly zone <i>involves</i> military strikes. No military involvement means: No. Military. Involvement.<br /><br />How can the nation trust the judgement of politicians (or others) who apparently cannot tell the difference between no military intervention on the one hand, and no-fly zones and cruise missile strikes on the other?<br /><br />The worry is <i>not</i> that "the default position of the nation is that our government is lying to us" it is that so many politicians think they can turn out the same old codswallop and that we will still fall for it.<br /><br />UK politicians seriously need to wake up, re-align themselves with what's real, and start telling the truth. Only then will they earn our trust.Budgienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-38829332981621260402013-08-29T22:01:41.305+01:002013-08-29T22:01:41.305+01:00Anonymous said...
Ten years on, Iraq is a fracture...Anonymous said...<br />Ten years on, Iraq is a fractured, sectarian, violent and corrupt place - and the ancient Christian communities have been savaged by Islamist attack. <br />===================================<br />Egypt also. It seems that we - the UK and the USA - have made a decision what we support the Sunnis in the Middle East end of days conflict between Sunni and Shia. Obama loves to hag with the Muslim Bros, whose history includes close links with the Hitler Boys in the thirties and WWII, and we are now looking to support Sunni & Al Qaeda in Syria. <br /><br />How we and the ObamaCretin came to this conclusion, that it is in our interests to support people who would blow us up at the drop of a hat is beyond me. History shows clearly that every time we intervene in the ME we make it worse for the populations involved. <br /><br />And as for chems, well<br />... here, a former Al Qaeda linked terror group leader tells us that they have and have used chems in Syria.<br /><br />http://nsnbc.me/2013/08/25/former-jabhat-al-nusrah-member-admits-chemical-weapons-use/<br /><br />And here a UN official tells us in May the rebshave and have used chems<br /><br />http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/6/syrian-rebels-used-sarin-nerve-gas-not-assads-regi/#ixzz2dAQ65j3K<br /><br />And here, American intelligence (yeah, yeah, I know) tell us they have no idea who is behind the chems.<br /><br />http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_UNITED_STATES_SYRIA_INTELLIGENCE_DOUBTS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-08-29-03-11-56<br /><br /><br /><br />Elby the Beserkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15060519682739666145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-69826198243334347472013-08-29T21:52:16.924+01:002013-08-29T21:52:16.924+01:00"Budgie said...
BQ, you could add to the mix ..."Budgie said...<br />BQ, you could add to the mix the fact that politicians (and others who run our society, like NHS Trust managers) never seem to resign when they get it wrong."<br /><br />They used to. Whatever you think of Major's administratfion, ministers resigned if they fucked up or got caught. That ended with Blair, and now nobody in the public sector is ever responsible when things go wrong. Viz. David Nicholson.Elby the Beserkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15060519682739666145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-2047382429561161032013-08-29T21:35:19.714+01:002013-08-29T21:35:19.714+01:00You back in Italy, HG ? How's it going there ...You back in Italy, HG ? How's it going there ?Nick Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670594203660051701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-62999969603971271932013-08-29T21:13:48.298+01:002013-08-29T21:13:48.298+01:00Reading the london ES - saw the rather good Carswe...Reading the london ES - saw the rather good Carswell piece on this.<br /><br />Makes the very good point that <br />in Egypt, the govt gets overthrown, the military kill 1000 and we support the military <br />- in Syria the regime kills 1000 in the course of a civil war and we want to bomb them to bits.<br /><br />I was idly wondering about the things Blair and Richard II had in common. <br />King for a short time. Later reviled by his contemporaries. Not much liked by historians. Unmarked grave under a car park.andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311993288675111834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-26371171811244748612013-08-29T20:00:41.948+01:002013-08-29T20:00:41.948+01:00Was Crosby on holiday or in the Walkabout? Either ...Was Crosby on holiday or in the Walkabout? Either Cammo's a fucking genius or this car crash is genuinely happening. What's that shit about laws and sausages? Good grief. The low grade speeches being made is like us lot at our jobs. Is a bit of effort too much to ask for? Kudos to Milibland though - saw a weakness and hit - bravo!DtPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-21684723830197763422013-08-29T18:01:12.516+01:002013-08-29T18:01:12.516+01:00@ Ryan. Quite. It has already turned into a politi...@ Ryan. Quite. It has already turned into a political bun fight. They should rise above that stuff to make a decision for the nation, not start tying to score political points.<br /><br />As for the nation believing politicians... there is the internet effect to consider, every word, action and nuance is pulled apart and opined on by all and sundry, just as here there is one view point (with pretty much a consensus today) there will be a hundred other bloggers/reporters with another view.<br /><br />A percentage of the populace don't seem to care or be aware of half the stuff politicos get up to unless it directly affects their pay packet or it turns into a scandal. <br /><br />All politicians lie.. not all of the time I'll give you, but it seems most of the time.<br /><br />Timbo614https://www.blogger.com/profile/14671168026195402267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-37035032184545042252013-08-29T17:33:10.045+01:002013-08-29T17:33:10.045+01:00Shouldn't we at least be considering our vital...Shouldn't we at least be considering our vital national interest?<br /><br />We have no vital national interest at stake in Syria.<br /><br />It is possible that we could be bribed by the Saudis or Americans to get involved, but we should really see the dosh first.<br /><br /><br />Jernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-55446687162357941532013-08-29T17:06:01.036+01:002013-08-29T17:06:01.036+01:00Hatfield Girl: I presume that you are under the im...Hatfield Girl: I presume that you are under the impression that gassing will be stopped using some sort of flip of a UN switch? Or is the reality that mass aerial bombardment will result in the deaths of 250,000 "human shields" and the Assad regime resorting to use of chemical weapons both on Syrias own citizens and Israel?<br /><br />Assad is not like Saddam - the Assad regime has the support from the majority of the Syrian people, which is why he has had no trouble clinging on despite the rebels. <br /><br />And what will happen if the Assad regime falls? Could it be we have a repeat of the situation is Egypt, where the new regime is no better than the previous? An unstable regime keeping its power by force? A regime stuffed with terrorists hell bent on taking action against Israel? <br /><br />You need to think more than one step ahead....Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-13807366516086894692013-08-29T16:57:44.981+01:002013-08-29T16:57:44.981+01:00I don't believe all politicians are liars but ...I don't believe all politicians are liars but "cast-iron" Cameron has form over the Lisbon Treaty.<br /><br />Cameron's attempt to talk the UK into a war it simply doesn't want, together with Labour's sad opportunism, is exactly the kind of thing that is giving people the impression that the political elite is entirely detached from the people and is serving other interests.Ryannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-84599450093129048782013-08-29T14:53:39.961+01:002013-08-29T14:53:39.961+01:00Poison gas murders of civilian populations living...Poison gas murders of civilian populations living next door to Israel. It's hard to think of a greater threat to Israel's world view and historical experience, a greater attack upon their fundamental claim to existence.<br /><br />Blair or no Blair (and he is doubly pernicious because he is being instrumentalised as well as having left this long shadow of destruction of political trust) gassing people has to be stopped: now, not after interminable delays and 'diplomacy'.hatfield girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12673905475452420002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-53846607043741469982013-08-29T14:52:06.536+01:002013-08-29T14:52:06.536+01:00I wonder if the Left will hold placards saying &qu...I wonder if the Left will hold placards saying "Barak O' Bomber" or burn effigies of the first black president outside the US embassy. <br /><br />If not then why not ?electro-kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16474290901146390184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-5573936532668112312013-08-29T14:48:34.106+01:002013-08-29T14:48:34.106+01:00Anon. yep..In case it isn't clear I'm agai...Anon. yep..In case it isn't clear I'm against any intervention of any kind. UN backing or not. Watching Dave now he's doing a good job. But he won't turn public opinion around whatever he does.<br /><br />DTP-we await your blog with anticipation!<br /><br />BE: We are of same mind. i firmly believe Assad or at least a Syrian army commander was responsible.<br />I don't believe that that requires military involvement. <br />Civil war is not something to jump into.Bill Quango MPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861116614665461655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-40736780613710691082013-08-29T14:39:21.862+01:002013-08-29T14:39:21.862+01:00EK - Never really got worried by Blair. Maybe fell...EK - Never really got worried by Blair. Maybe fell for his charm. But Brown made me join the rebel alliance against him.<br /><br />Hovis: agree with you on that. I'm not saying its bad that people don't believe their government. But in Britain, not an awfully long time ago, people absolubtley would have. <br /><br />For me the worry is that the default position of the nation is that our government is lying to us. <br />Bill Quango MPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861116614665461655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-11282545537342405472013-08-29T14:18:33.943+01:002013-08-29T14:18:33.943+01:00BQ great post. Apols if others have made this poin...BQ great post. Apols if others have made this point already. You don't have to disbelieve the chemical attacks by Assad to be against military action. You can think the Assad is a bastard AND think that British involvement will be a disaster.Blue Eyesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-62491418530644714862013-08-29T13:55:01.963+01:002013-08-29T13:55:01.963+01:00Speaking of taking up blogging I think it would be...Speaking of taking up blogging I think it would be only right to go back to the old skool<br /><br />***applause Bill***DtPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-78859746790984367752013-08-29T12:45:00.999+01:002013-08-29T12:45:00.999+01:00Ten years on, Iraq is a fractured, sectarian, viol...Ten years on, Iraq is a fractured, sectarian, violent and corrupt place - and the ancient Christian communities have been savaged by Islamist attack. <br /><br />Not many Christians in Libya, but otherwise a similar outcome (see the current wave of strikes).<br /><br />You'd think that would give our rulers pause for thought. <br /><br />Apparently not. <br /><br />Maybe a fractured, sectarian, violent and corrupt Syria is the aim? Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-5925283000557661812013-08-29T12:26:42.658+01:002013-08-29T12:26:42.658+01:00So Blair's lies cast a shadow, yes. He is vain...So Blair's lies cast a shadow, yes. He is vain, hubristic and morally dubious, yes. However he is a symptom, not a cause per se.<br /><br />Our distrust of politicians and the (broken) representative political mechanisms in the country are entirely correct given the empirical evidence and experience we have. I dont think it is that all politcians are considered liars all the time. They can fart around most of the time with incremental longer term consequences and go unnoticed by the populous. <br /><br />It is when as in the current case, questions are asked and possibilties are interpreted as facts and inconvenient facts are forgotten it is noted as further evidence of a 'fish rotting from its head'.<br /><br />The last Sarin attack in Syria was in all likelihood by the 'rebels', (if you are inclined to believe the UN.) The curent enquiry looks at if gas was used not by whom. <br /><br />Finally am I interpreting you correctly, that you suggest it is necesarily a bad thing that "people refused to believe their government"??hovisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-3684833549026896662013-08-29T11:33:17.254+01:002013-08-29T11:33:17.254+01:00It wasn't Iraq that made me hate Blair but his...It wasn't Iraq that made me hate Blair but his vanity and the fact that he clearly hates the likes of me - he made all the pre-emptive strikes against modest, conservative Britain. <br /><br />It was his mission to abolish our country which got to me - his foreign adventures merely attested to his vanity and highlighted the schizophrenic nature of his sixth-former world view.<br /><br />Iraq was useful in that it made a lot of other people hate Blair too. For the wrong reason but it will do.<br /><br /><br /><br />electro-kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16474290901146390184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-75096467994297435992013-08-29T11:18:59.749+01:002013-08-29T11:18:59.749+01:00roym: Glad you brought that up.
Public concerns o...roym: Glad you brought that up. <br />Public concerns of elected or appointed officials had been building in the West since WW1. Two world wars made the remaining civilians distrustful.<br /><br />Its not confined to Blair. About 6% of Americans profess to believe the Moon landing was faked. 20% or higher believe the twin towers were dynamited by the CIA. To believe that you have to believe your own governments not only don't represent you, but are actively plotting against their own citizens. That's the lies of Watergate effect.<br /><br />People have always believed what they want to. Popeish plot. Jews are taking over the world. McCarthy. <br /><br />And every government has eroded trust with their lies. Whether it was eating BSE filled burgers or selling Peerages for profit or pretending the EU was only a trading block. <br /><br />But, to the nub:<br />The Blair / Campbell Iraq case for war convinced a doubting public to go along with what turned out to be a disaster. Those lies turned into betrayal made worse by Blair's previous popularity..<br /><br />The fact that Blair was so convincing, and had so little evidence for war, the silly chase for some UN resolution that only weakened the UK's position when it failed, now causes us to doubt the evidence of our own eyes unless its been independently verified by a source uncontaminated by UK politicians.<br />And often not even then.<br /><br />That is what I mean by Blair's shadow. <br /><br />And you can see it cast today over Ed Miliband who is using the words 'Learn Iraq Lessons' & 'Indisputable proof and UN mandate' as he attempts to either stop direct action or look like he is to his furious anti war backers.<br /><br />Sound logic and probably the most sensible thing the Miliman has ever said. <br /><br />But it undermines the PM because the sub message is <br />"We don't believe you David Cameron. We must see the evidence for ourselves. The word of the PM, even given in Parliament is no longer enough."<br /><br />All politicians are liars.Bill Quango MPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861116614665461655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-49121429356292018612013-08-29T11:10:31.168+01:002013-08-29T11:10:31.168+01:00dearieme:Blair does think its a good idea. But he ... dearieme:Blair does think its a good idea. But he doesn't say intervention. Maybe he just wants to stop the Middle east dictators unleashing their stocks of chemicals on each other?<br /><br />Budgie: Agreed. Non accountability for made up facts was also a cause of erosion of the politicians message.<br />As for Libya what I meant was the ultra anti-intervention peaceniks predicted a quagmire Iraq situation with UK forces committed for ten years for ever decreasing returns and ever increasing casualties. <br /><br />That didn't happen and was never likely to. Same with Syria. Western forces aren't planning going near the place with foot soldiers. Just standoff weapons fired from outside Syrian airspace or waters.<br /><br />{already on the radio today three callers have said the Americans are hell bent on war...Clearly they aren't. American public opinion is almost the reverse of their Iraq 2 war polling with 80% against military action. They have tried all sorts of measures to stay out of it. Only Obama's bumbling and Assad's desperation/confidence have allowed the situation to develop against the wishes of all concerned.}<br /><br />EK/Corncrake:<br />The strange thing about Blair is why did he do it? He was such a pathetically cautious PM before 9/11.<br />Very, very timid. Focus group tested policies only. <br />Then suddenly he wages war for no reason. And to this day..there is no reason. Bush was a bit more open. He went to war because he wanted to. Ridiculous as it seems that's about as close to a reason as has been given.<br /><br />Bill Quango MPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861116614665461655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-58030615666977486592013-08-29T10:07:48.775+01:002013-08-29T10:07:48.775+01:00Budgie has it right it is the fact that there is n...Budgie has it right it is the fact that there is no accountability for any action made MPs or in the civil service by any quango head or local government for any fiasco that occurs a golden handshake taxpayer funded and move on to the next institution that is all that happens. Peter Whalenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-54605099952380121142013-08-29T10:02:47.929+01:002013-08-29T10:02:47.929+01:00EK / corncrake - it's interesting isn't it...EK / corncrake - it's interesting isn't it ? I started this lark under the uncontrollable urge to mock, deride and generally damn Blair & Brown<br /><br />I've never really managed to work up that fervour again<br /><br />(which is probably as well, since I don't inflict the <a href="http://www.cityunslicker.co.uk/search/label/doggerel" rel="nofollow">doggerel</a> on you so much these days)Nick Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670594203660051701noreply@blogger.com