tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post6294579316698757874..comments2024-03-18T16:33:31.633+00:00Comments on Capitalists@Work: Freedom of Speech above allCityUnslickerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15929544047783163175noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-81852616342434373792015-01-09T11:30:40.810+00:002015-01-09T11:30:40.810+00:00Ek. Look at guido Fawkes site today. And the seen ...Ek. Look at guido Fawkes site today. And the seen elsewhere section. There is a link to what you are talking about. "Attacking Farage shuts down debate." <br /><br />I'd post the link but it's a pain from a tablet.Bill Quango MPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861116614665461655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-60692884285983282102015-01-09T08:58:16.960+00:002015-01-09T08:58:16.960+00:00DJK - I've given more thought to 'cry-baby...DJK - I've given more thought to 'cry-baby'<br /><br />Yes. I was concerned that I was coming across so. <br /><br />Look. <br /><br />There are very few targets whom I could mock on Twitter without:<br /><br />A) Losing my job<br /><br />B) Being investigated by the police for hate crime<br /><br />And, in the case of Islam<br /><br />C) Having a fatwah issued against me<br /><br />I want a country in which people are free to insult me - but where I am free to insult them too. You missed my point entirely and do not seem to understand the gravity of the situation. <br /><br />We simply cannot have the will of the great majority of the British public suppressed by law. politics and satire; certainly not to the point that to justify their existences - and satisfy their impulses to fight for something... ANYTHING - they have made bogey men of white English while one particular strand of religion is treated with utter reverence for no other reason than it so readily resorts to violence. <br /><br />Far from being a 'cry-baby' I'm being very adult about this. (Though I am risking becoming a blog hog and bore)<br /><br />Aaeron Arantovich (spelling ?) and Richard Littlejohn have (by coincidence) offered identical but far more articulate explanations than my own. Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-11112793019792962342015-01-09T07:31:33.593+00:002015-01-09T07:31:33.593+00:00There are NO moderate muslims. There are (not man...There are NO moderate muslims. There are (not many!) secular people who do not practise islam who were brought up in it. The rest are biding their time. Did you hear the muslims from High Wycombe on R4 this morning? <br /><br />Farage is absolutely 100% correct. We have a 5th column in our midst - and the MSM and the LibLabCon pols are either too stupid or too terrified to <br />A) admit it<br />B) do anything about it, because it means either deporting them back to Mirpur or surrendering in 50 years time when they are half the population.<br /><br />Sebastian Weetabixnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-64056996289524343222015-01-09T02:38:47.879+00:002015-01-09T02:38:47.879+00:00DJK - You contradict yourself entirely.
Admittin...DJK - You contradict yourself entirely. <br /><br />Admitting there is a grave tilt in the democratic playing field towards a culture which threatens violence against free speech. Even British moderates have said of the Charlie Hebdo incident "Oh they didn't deserve to die - imprisonment perhaps."<br /><br />Pardon ??? (As they say in France)<br /><br />I'll leave others to judge whether I've been a cry-baby (I'd like not to think so) and If I had been I'm pretty sure that I'd have reacted badly to you calling me a cry-baby rather than offering you a thoughtful response. Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-46011745775954756862015-01-08T20:17:43.925+00:002015-01-08T20:17:43.925+00:00Some did publish and be damnedSome did <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/07/charlie-hebdo-front-pages_n_6433722.html" rel="nofollow">publish </a> and be damnedTimbo614https://www.blogger.com/profile/14671168026195402267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-2231551850654203722015-01-08T18:55:59.668+00:002015-01-08T18:55:59.668+00:00EK: I would say to you, as to adherents of minori...EK: I would say to you, as to adherents of minority religions: don't be such a cry-baby, and remember what your mother told you about sticks and stones. And on a practical point, UKIP probably benefit from the sneers of North London bien-pensants.<br /><br />That said, Mooslims are clearly now a protected minority in a way that kippers are not. Several police forces are actively monitoring social media --- and I suppose this counts --- ready to drop the proverbial ton of bricks on anyone deemed to have incited hurt feelings. Against that, noone in the media or government is brave enough to re-publish the original cartoons. V. sad.DJKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-85353367361669240062015-01-08T18:45:02.312+00:002015-01-08T18:45:02.312+00:00How many of you would walk through certain parts o...How many of you would walk through certain parts of West Yorkshire, the North West or the Midlands wearing a t-shirt with such a cartoon on?<br /><br />I'd be too afraid for my own safety.<br /><br />And of course the government should protect law abiding cartoonists from nutters with automatic rifles, unless you believe the state should 'butt out' and let Tesco stock M16's. Where is DK these days anyway?Steven_Lhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05029437876479574883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-39737028418688421962015-01-08T18:04:46.241+00:002015-01-08T18:04:46.241+00:00EK - you have mounted a good defense here today.
T...EK - you have mounted a good defense here today.<br />The politico's this afternoon has as ever circled the wagons against UKIP.<br />But it is sad that no one will print the cartoons or satirise islam when there is no compunction about UKIP, Catholics or the CofE or even the monarchy. <br /><br />We are not quite the totally free country we would like to imagine. I think a constitution, so derided by many, would at least have the advantage of first amendment style rights. CityUnslickerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15929544047783163175noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-32400443348155401962015-01-08T15:50:37.607+00:002015-01-08T15:50:37.607+00:00"As British, we do not even register with any..."As British, we do not even register with anyone in authority."<br /><br />For how long?Peter MacFarlanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05554166005487231094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-62775529374707554472015-01-08T15:17:36.165+00:002015-01-08T15:17:36.165+00:00Daily MailDaily MailElectro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-80023102797908152015-01-08T15:15:59.297+00:002015-01-08T15:15:59.297+00:00Thank you Budgie
And at risk of hijacking this bl...Thank you Budgie<br /><br />And at risk of hijacking this blog from our generous hosts...<br /><br />***Update***<br /><br />Nick Clegg misses the point made by Nigel Farage about multi culturalism in Britain today. <br /><br />Britain is no longer a country at ease with itself. The BBC and the Daily can't even bring themselves to publish the cartoons so that we can assess for ourselves what the fuss was about. <br /><br />Islamic Britain could demonstrate their tolerance by not getting upset by this at this time.<br /><br />We are told that publication will not be allowed so as not to cause offence. We all know the real reason and that is that the executives of these organisations fear both legal and physical reprisal. <br /><br />And they call Ukippers easily wind-up-able ???<br /><br />Nigel is right. This is no longer a free country at ease with itself. <br /><br />Nick Clegg thoroughly deserves being wiped off the political map. And he will be. He is completely out of tune with public sentiment. <br /><br />Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-15785425513646574132015-01-08T14:58:57.881+00:002015-01-08T14:58:57.881+00:00E-K is correct, a diminutive middle aged English w...E-K is correct, a diminutive middle aged English white guy (Farage) can safely be poked with a stick - he's not going to murder you in return. But poke the bees nest of Mohammed? No, that's not allowed. So the LibLabCon and their hangers on are now exposed for their cowardice and hypocrisy.Budgienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-29228717122893331382015-01-08T14:08:22.730+00:002015-01-08T14:08:22.730+00:00UK lawyers are what the people fear most, BE. Even...UK lawyers are what the people fear most, BE. Even though they might not realise it. <br /><br />(Through the fear that lawyers strike into the hearts of our employers. It's certainly the case with me.)Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-15590869595575662672015-01-08T13:43:02.910+00:002015-01-08T13:43:02.910+00:00DJK - Of course not, DJK. But we are entitled to n...DJK - Of course not, DJK. But we are entitled to notice the subjects that Mr Hislop steers clear of. <br /><br />He's going to have to comment on this assault on his trade, however. I doubt it will be funny or that he will be taking risks.<br /><br />Whereas lampoonery would be entirely the correct response from a satarist in defence of free speech. <br /><br />At the time that this country needs Mr Hislop most you can guarantee that he won't be there. <br /><br /><br /><br /> Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-79954420864258253462015-01-08T13:40:07.497+00:002015-01-08T13:40:07.497+00:00I find it quite interesting to see who it is who i...I find it quite interesting to see who it is who is campaigning for the repeal of fundamental rights as currently legislated for in the UK.<br /><br />Article 10 would not be enforceable in the UK if these people were allowed their way.<br /><br />I don't think it is the "lefty" "metro" "elite". Just saying.BEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-32232956762121723832015-01-08T13:26:56.645+00:002015-01-08T13:26:56.645+00:00Ian Hislop does what he does. In a free society t...Ian Hislop does what he does. In a free society there is no requirement for him to be even handed in his satire.<br /><br />But I would hope is that the BBC and national newspapers reprinted the French and Danish cartoons, so that we could all see what the fuss was about. Or how about David Cameron holding up a copy of the cartoon on live television and saying that we believe in the freedom to publish these things, rather than the wishy-washy platitudes his press secretary wrote for him to say. DJKnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-15634638466446054092015-01-08T13:13:04.611+00:002015-01-08T13:13:04.611+00:00I hope my last comment makes things clearer, Nick....I hope my last comment makes things clearer, Nick. <br /><br />France will become the same as Britain after the dust has settled. They will back off Islam and the satirists will make fools and bogeymen of non-bigots so as to justify their livings and make themselves seem relevent. If they are going to be intimidated into accepting boundaries then hey ! I'll be fucked if I'm going to just stand by and let them take the piss out of my beliefs. <br /><br />If I don't then I risk becoming a second class citizen in my own country. <br /><br />This is to skew democratic will away - as Budgie rightly says - from people who are decent enough not to keep bees in a crowded neighbourhood.<br /><br />Including Mr Hislop here is not a strange turn. He, after all, calls himself a satirist so it is useful to compare him with those in France who seem to be a lot more current and edgy. <br /><br />He's good at poking fun at my cause at the moment. Let's see him poke fun at something that bites back then. <br /><br />Frankie Boyle too. <br /><br /><br /><br />Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-26679186692165149082015-01-08T13:03:46.404+00:002015-01-08T13:03:46.404+00:00I can't think of a single one of the UK's ...I can't think of a single one of the UK's crop of highly paid, self-regarding edgy comics who would DARE to tackle the elephant in the room that is Islam.<br /><br />And it may be that whilst most of them are genuinely cowards, there remain a few who would have a go, if they weren't even more afraid of the social stigma amongst the left of being branded right-wing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-25980961344284814342015-01-08T12:56:53.387+00:002015-01-08T12:56:53.387+00:00It isn't gentle lampooning, BQ. Farage is hate...It isn't gentle lampooning, BQ. Farage is hated - loathed. <br /><br />Didn't you hear Ms Purple Hair ranting at him on QT (and allowed to do so) ? Where did that come from ?<br /><br />The 'gentle' prodding you hear hourly on R4 and any BBC panel show isn't gentle when you're the one feeling it - and though no-one is challenging Ukip with reasoned debate their gains are slowly ebbing away. <br /><br />Do you wonder why that is ?<br /><br />Don't you think that the persistent levels of satire are taking their toll ?<br /><br />Private Eye wouldn't have to do much prodding to exact fearful retribution. Merely publishing a front page cartoon with the Prophet Mohammed in it could do the trick. <br /><br />"Ah. But that's religion - not politics."<br /><br />The CofE has suffered all sorts of 'gentle' lampoonery over the decades (by the most affable of chaps, Michael Palin no less) look at the state of the CofE now !<br /><br />The Muslims won't be putting up with any of that. They know just how corrosive and lethal gentle lampoonery is. <br /><br />And that's why we're destined to become a Muslim country whether we want it or not. <br /><br />I'd rather we were a jocular country once more - but let's face it, the limits on humour have been imposed by the leftists far more than the Islamists. <br /><br />In fact there is very little that you could joke about on Twitter without being arrested or losing your job, excepting, or course, white Englishmen, old people, Ukip, the CofE and our Monarchy. <br /><br />It's not me that started getting all serious about things. Really. So when people start sniding about Ukip without offering a good, sound debate to it then I'm going to take a leaf out of the minority's book and start objecting to it. <br /><br />Otherwise democracy really has ended. One ideology is exempt from rational critique where others are ridiculed mercilessly. <br /><br />The lampooners are not clever. They've become unwitting agents in the furtherance of true bigotry. <br /><br /><br />Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-44739674104414338342015-01-08T12:55:51.827+00:002015-01-08T12:55:51.827+00:00Criticism of satirists for cowardice or whatever i...Criticism of satirists for cowardice or whatever is a strange turn of events: so far as I know, Hislop has not taken any state-funded commission* to be rude to everyone at all times<br /><br />he does what he does & will probably contnue to do so<br /><br />a 12-year old kid being bullied by 16-yr old thugs often has to rely on intervention by teachers or other adults<br /><br />a family intimidated by drug gangs on a sink estate may need to rely on the local authority or the police<br /><br />a newspaper in a free society may have to seek protection from the state - and I hope it will get it, though there are grounds for pessemism<br /><br />* BTW, we do know an organisation that has taken a state-funded commission to communicate on our behalves, it is the BBC, which sees fit to broadcast Frankie Boyle ...Nick Drewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13670594203660051701noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-19698517946830957542015-01-08T12:52:25.563+00:002015-01-08T12:52:25.563+00:00Mystopitname said: "Again, if your gonna poke...Mystopitname said: "Again, if your gonna poke a bees nest, your [sic] on your own."<br /><br />So your view is that poking other people is ok, just not if they are bees nests? In other words hypocrisy is your watchword. I think that says it all really.Budgienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-18165062039435933802015-01-08T12:36:22.073+00:002015-01-08T12:36:22.073+00:00CU, as you say, without the proper freedom to crit...CU, as you say, without the proper freedom to criticise, discuss, debate, present arguments, and mock, send-up etc. there can be no holding of authority to account.<br /><br />Thus, in my view, that freedom ought to be as close to absolute as possible. I would draw the line at incitement, but recently in the so-called "liberal" countries we have erred towards criticising anything which *may* be offensive.<br /><br />Of course, true liberalism requires us to allow other people their freedom as well. And that means we have to tolerate things which we may not like. <br /><br />The challenge in many contemporary liberal societies is that we have people who take full advantage of the freedoms afforded by liberalism while also trying to suppress people they do not like. <br /><br />There are fanatics everywhere, constantly trying to shut down debate. We see it every day.<br /><br />The trouble with fanatics is that they know they are right, and so cannot be debated. They have a set idea of perfection, and will never be satisfied by reality.<br /><br />Fanatics come in all shapes and sizes these days. The only possible reaction to fanatics is to laugh at them, and to not to over-react.<br /><br />Let us hope that developed countries do not react to these backwardseekers by withdrawing from the world.BEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-90545775254576919262015-01-08T12:24:38.609+00:002015-01-08T12:24:38.609+00:00I never found the CH cartoons very funny. Too radi...I never found the CH cartoons very funny. Too radical for my taste..<br />But then French humour is a bit odd. To draw a comparison with Hislop is a little unfair too.<br /><br />Private Eye would be happy to print a picture of Cameron in a greasy spoon. The caption might be something like<br /> "A glass of passable Merlot and some lightly grilled sole. With mushy peas.."<br /><br />Charlie more likely to have a picture of Hollande tucking into a turd on a plate.<br /><br />The BBC doing their repetitive and empty UKIP jokes isn't the same thing. That is just gentle a gentle lampooning. The same as they might do about Tories. Or Farmers. Or Boris. Or The M25.<br /><br />French extreme satire has always been very edgy. Ours, always, more restrained. Peter Cook openly lampooning Macmillan is still quite disturbing 50 years later on. <br /><br />But having said all that,the cartoons that were produced in sympathy yesterday were some of the finest cartoon art I have ever seen. <br />Poignant, biting, concise, sympathetic and powerful.<br /><br /><br />Bill Quango MPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14861116614665461655noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-69988757438634280622015-01-08T12:10:54.330+00:002015-01-08T12:10:54.330+00:00My Stop it Name
I dislike satirists. They are imb...My Stop it Name<br /><br />I dislike satirists. They are imbued with far more power than they deserve and a quick poke is NOT a reasoned debate, in my view. Though it scores far more highly. <br /><br />My own people are suffering from the satarist's quick right now. <br /><br />Our attempt to correct the democratic deficit in Britain is being held in check not by reasoned debate (an eminent politician was made to look a fool saw his party relegated to fourth place when he tried that) but by sniding. <br /><br />Cheap little comments against Ukippers. Nasty little lies about us being bigotted and stupid. <br /><br />And of the real bigots ? The murderous ones ?<br /><br />They dare not joke about them. They feel free to joke about us though - precisely because were NOT bigots nor are we murderous. <br /><br />So I'm a little bit with you, My Stop It Name. <br /><br />Don't risk it, Mr Satirist. But at the same time don't pretend to be something you're not and DON'T pretend that we're something we aren't. <br /><br />Truly free speech ended yesterday and this is clear in that people will not carry the cartoons in defence of it. They are too scared. <br /><br />Ukip are not the ones suffering from hysteria here. Electro-Kevinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18073103431166273080noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32841798.post-88453197550098093112015-01-08T11:14:45.397+00:002015-01-08T11:14:45.397+00:00EK - fair comment. The pic was from the companies ...EK - fair comment. The pic was from the companies own website, today at least I feel that is more appropriate. Overall, your comments are on the money as to the UK approach post-Rushdie. CityUnslickerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15929544047783163175noreply@blogger.com