Friday, 25 February 2022

Modern hybrid war - it never ends

 The invasion of Ukraine has been long signalled and 10 years in the making.

The propaganda war has included Russian support for the SNP, Brexit, Catalonia and others. Much bribery in Germany in Italy and all across the EU. Even support for President Trump.

Even when Ukraine falls, which sadly remains likely even if it becomes a low grade war much like has happened in Donbas for several years, the hybrid propaganda will continue.

China has conveniently fallen for it, as have the usual leftie-suspects in the UK like Corbyn and Galloway.

Then next stage will show Putin suddenly keen on peace, trying to partition Ukraine and withdraw from Kyiv, whilst still blaming Ukraine. Then a plebiscite is Eastern Ukraine will ensure it joins Russia fully, perhaps Transnistra too.

Meanwhile, the gas vs sanctions will play out, not too long until the summer to Putin new he had to strike now whilst the gas threats might work on Germany. 

Then what, what next will the Maskirovka try to do - undermining the West will surely only step up? 




94 comments:

dearieme said...

I had always hoped that Putin - though a murderous despot - was intelligent, well-informed, rational, and cautious.

Was I wrong or has he changed? Lord Acton comes to mind: "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Oh dearie me: the bugger now has his Putin Doctrine, not a bad match for the USA's Monroe Doctrine.

Don Cox said...

I think you were wrong. Putin was trained to be paranoid, and has always felt threatened. This is a man who has spent thousands of hours training in armed and unarmed combat.

"Infamy ! Infamy! They've all got it in for me!"

I suppose he's right in that Czars have always been liable to be assassinated. But if he had obeyed the term limits in the constitution, instead of clinging to power at all costs, he could be living in peaceful retirement now, like Gorbachev. He didn't need to be a dictator, except in his own paranoid mind.

Don



Don Cox

Bill Quango MP said...

Lots of holes in the sanctions.

Few to no restrictions on the sale of fuels or agricultural products. Or, no restrictions much beyond inconvenience. Germany and Italy going into,meltdowns at the thought of interrupted gas supplies and fertilizer and assorted chemical bans.

Have I seen that correctly? West is just too dependent on Russia to stop the purchases. Something like $700 million a day are purchased of gas, oil and metals from Putin, by the west.

The Eu powers appear to be in the position of parents who threaten to turn off the WiFi and unplug the TV, but realise they won’t be able to watch their own stuff or access the Facebook, Netflix, etc.
So instead won’t tell the naughty child the new password of the broadband.
And shut off the Xbox account.

Even though they know the Chinese kid next door will let him use theirs. And those kids don’t watch tv on a set anyway. And their child can pay cash to the other one to buy his downloads for him.

A Swiss cheese of sanctions.

Bill Quango MP said...

Was I wrong or has he changed? Lord Acton comes to mind: "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Are you sure it was Lord Acton? The great and knowledgeable historian?
Isn’t it the plot of Godfather II?

“Do we need to kill Hyman Roth, Michael? He’s old and in exile and fleeing. You’ve won. Do you really need to wipe out everyone?”

“ I don’t need to wipe out everyone Tom. Just my enemies.”

jim said...

I wonder if all this Ukraine stuff could blowback on Putin - and us. He has caused a lot of upset for no real purpose and Putin has enemies at home, in and out of the Kremlin. Russia is a dangerous bad land sort of place. With a little help bad? people could get hold of the makings of a simple nuke - and post it to Putin's Moscow. Left at that no one would cry much, but the knock on effects could be a bit serious - Putin would not want to admit he has home grown haters, they would have to be foreign haters.... For the want of a nail a shoe was lost etc etc.

Anyway the fun does not stop. All this is a gift to Trump, it makes Biden look weak - Biden is effectively unmanned. With a bit of luck and Russian cash Trump could romp home come 2024. Seems to me the world needs two very good snipers.

Bill Quango MP said...

Not sure on the nuke possibilities, Jim.
But the Trump observation hits the target.

It’s an absolute gift for him.
Afghanistan. The economy, too.

Elby the Beserk said...

jim said...

Anyway the fun does not stop. All this is a gift to Trump, it makes Biden look weak - Biden is effectively unmanned. With a bit of luck and Russian cash Trump could romp home come 2024. Seems to me the world needs two very good snipers.

2:15 pm
=======================================================

Everyone knows Biden is an empty shell already.

Witness

https://twitter.com/dlux2561/status/1496948696352800770?s=20

What the hell was the USA thinking, electing Jimmy Carter with cleat senile dementia?

Nick Drew said...

@ Something like $700 million a day are purchased of gas, oil and metals from Putin, by the west

and coal!

about half of Germany's hard-coal imports come from Russia! - the whole of E.Europe is hooked on Russian supplies of almost every energy category (except wind ...)

E-K said...

Doesn't anyone here think Putin has a point ?

dearieme said...

Elby, was it the US that elected him or the US's photocopiers?

Don Cox said...

"Doesn't anyone here think Putin has a point ?"

No, not at all. There was never any need to stir up the Russian-speaking Ukrainians. Or to send in the Wagners to make things worse.

Don

Seelby the Berk said...

Kevin

Asking questions like that is why you’ll not get a modicum of respect. Prick

Nick Drew said...

Here's a good read on the subject

https://prospect.org/world/worse-than-a-crime-its-a-blunder-russia-ukraine-lieven-interview/

lots of gems on lots of angles

Sobers said...

"Doesn't anyone here think Putin has a point ?"

Yes I do. All this has arisen because the West went back on its promises to Russia when the USSR fell apart that it wouldn't expand NATO eastwards. As ever the white man spoke with forked tongue and with a decade they'd conveniently 'forgotten' all those promises given, and one by one accepted the former eastern bloc countries in. Russia couldn't do anything at the time, it was a basket case. But they have long memories, and eventually the wheel comes full circle. Now the West is the basket case, hooked on Russian resources, psychologically weak due to its ruling class having been infected with woke ideology, and financially weak due to having outsourced everything that makes true wealth to other parts of the globe. We don't make steel computer chips, but hey, we have a great computer games industry! Whereas Russia holds all the real wealth trump cards - oil, gas, coal and food.

Thats where the root of all this lies - the West can't be trusted to keep its word.

Incidentally, on the issue of one country invading another on trumped up pretexts, how exactly is what Putin is doing any different to what the US(with its UK poodle) did to Iraq? What gives us one iota of moral standing to criticise him?

E-K said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
E-K said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
E-K said...

A modicum of courtesy was what I thought would be nice, Seelby. I don't care much for your respect.

Whatever. Water off a duck's back.

So.

This is how it works. The EU bribes it's way through Eastern Europe using EU taxpayer's money and NATO follows planting it's flag right behind all the way up to Putin's back yard. (Maybe the other way around... we're meant to be confused btw. The main EU modus.)

NATO was formed with the specific purpose of killing Russians btw.

In WW2 a German axis killed over 5x as many Russians as it did European Jews. Putin (a patriot) is expected to shrug as the modern 'peaceful' German axis approaches a country containing its main naval base Sevastapol. Never mind the 27,000,000 who died within living memory what is the EU/Nato trying to sell Ukrainians who voted against ?

Woke ? Newspeak ? Cultural and historic erasure ? Men are women, black is white, wind-turbines-will-save-us and if you *deny* it you get cancelled, sacked... prosecuted ???

A vile Marxist creed that even 50% of our own people are sick of and aren't buying ?

The masters of invasion and regime change is Nato, Blighty and the EU. Global bloodshed, head chopping and refugee crises of biblical proportions ensuing. Libya and Iraq (still no WMDs)

Our own Pravda (the BBC) squeals that there are no Nazis in western Ukraine ... except they inadvertently showed us footage of a member of the Azov Battalion (replete in Waffen SS insignia) teaching a doughty old Ukrainian woman how to shoot.

Now.

The Nazis in Ukraine line may be bollocks (I don't think it is) but it was incumbent on Pravda (formerly known as the BBC) to be a bit inquisitive about this chap's attire if only to debunk Putin's claims to be de-Nazi-fying Ukraine. (I do believe that the original German Azov Battalion's speciality was village clearance. God knows what the Ukrainian version gets up to out of view of cameras.)

Now. We live in an age of #MeToo and Woke. I would be sacked for wearing Nazi regalia to a fancy dress party. I could even be arrested for it or - in certain cases - imprisoned for it and rightly so.

Why is it acceptable/ignorable by the BBC to support active military personal wearing Nazi insignia ? Why are supporters of Ukraine not demanding that this battalion is disbanded before any help is given ?

I'm dwelling too much on this point.

Next.

Pravda (formerly the BBC) squealed last night that a democratic election had been held to which I would ask "Which one ?"

The first in which most Ukrainians had a say but was overturned in a 'popular revolt' (when ever does a popular revolt result in civil war ?) Or the second (EU approved one) which has irked Putin ?

I'm sure he's mighty pissed at our own Baroness Cathy Ashton who handed out tea and cakes to anti Russian demonstrators on Ukrainian soil in her capacity as Head Sixth Former ... I mean High EU Representative.

So.

Tough talk is all very brave but you need to consider what I was told by an extremely senior ranking British Army officer on a one-to-one exchange whilst drinking heavily several years ago just before Covid.

In any nuclear exchange with Russia the UK gets totally wiped out. Those that aren't caught in blast zones get the Chernobyl treatment. Please watch the dramatisation to see what you may have to endure.

Both America and Russia have retreat zones... China gets to clean up afterwards (a nuclear winter ensues.) Hardships all round.

What none of you are considering is this.

If Putin has truly gone mad. We have pushed him too far after his many exhortations to leave this part of the Nato jig saw alone - and quite reasonably in my view.

If sanctions make him dead meat (as you all seem to want) what's he got to lose by pushing that button ?

Why the hell should he respect a pissy old geriatric in the Whitehouse, a sexually incontinent oaf in Downing Street and a whole power system of Woke ?

He hates us.

Rightly so.






E-K said...

... and what Sobers said.

Thud said...

No Kev, he is a killer and a killer is just that, nothing more nothing less.

Thud said...

Ukraine will fall but Putin will also further down the road as his fellow thieves suffer (no more villas in Nice)and his army bleeds out on the road to its victory. fucking sick of hearing about russia suffering in last war, they fought with the Germans, partitioned Poland and supplied Iron and steel for Germans to drop on us. russia fought the war to survive (with our help) not to save the world and at the end dominated once free nations for 2 generations...fuck them.

Sobers said...

"The propaganda war has included Russian support for the SNP, Brexit, Catalonia and others. Much bribery in Germany in Italy and all across the EU. Even support for President Trump."

I'd like a long hard look to be taken at where the money came from to promote Greta Thunberg into an eco-saint. Who exactly benefits the most from the West abolishing its fossil fuel production capacity, and hollowing out its industrial capability as a result? If that caper wasn't backed by Vlad I bet he can't believe his luck. 'You mean the idiots are voluntarily destroying their energy security and handing power over their entire nations to me?'

Anonymous said...

Guns and butter question.
Who is it that is running down our self-sufficiency in food and steel?

It's our own government in pursuit of an ideology that makes not just open to the world but open to those that seek to control us through their paid proxies.

Caeser Hēméra said...

On NATO expansion, Putin has no point - there was never any promise about eastwards expansion, the oft-mentioned words of Baker and the agreements were all about East Germany. That was confirmed by Gorbachev.

There is an argument that the expansion may have breached the spirit of the agreements, however starting with the Transnistrian war, it was plain that any ex-Soviet/Warsaw Pact wanting to maintain the integrity of their borders needed to look West for protection.

You don't get to moan about nations trying to improve their security when you're the reason they feel threatened in the first place.

That's not to say the West isn't off the hook, just that claims that NATO expansion is the cause is a load of hogwash.

Russia hasn't been treated with a great deal of respect post-Soviet Union, even when musing joining NATO themselves they were told to head to the back of the queue. The recent pivot of the US from Europe to Asia pretty much told Russia they now sat in the pool of nations labelled "inconsequential", which for a proud nation with a penchant for violence was never going to sit well.

We're being treated to the geopolitical equivalent of the crazy ex, who at 3am turns up outside your house with dozens of eggs, some paint and a half-drunk bottle of cheap red to loudly take out their spurning on your car.

Anonymous said...

We're in the era of "Make great again.

China with their "Wolf Warriors"; Russia (qv); our friend Trump; Turkey which has even changed it's name; UAE and their actions in the Med; and India coming up fast in the rear mirror.

The world is tilting eastwards and we're being sold out.

E-K said...

I don't doubt he is a killer, Thud.

That does not make him one dimensional.

I have never witnessed such consensus of opinion. You are 100% with the 99% in the West and I have witnessed what can only be described as unobjective Nato propaganda from BBC correspondents. That rings alarm bells with me.

That we "have Hitler on our hands."

No. We don't.

"Putin wants to dominate Europe."

No. He doesn't.

He just doesn't want Europe dominating HIM. There is a reversal of truth in the West.

But if we are pushing him to the brink of insanity (which I think we are) then this could easily become all out nuclear war.

E-K said...

Thud 11.57

You're no longer allowed to mention 'Germans' in case you hadn't noticed.

It was a mysteriously disappeared tribe called The Nazis wot did it.

But glad you pointed it out anyway. Putin is a patriot. 27 million of his people died defending themselves against the last German led axis that tried to encroach on his territory.

Have you any idea how many of his missiles are pointed at us ? The UK will be carpet bombed with nuclear warheads.

Are you sure you care about Ukraine that much ?

E-K said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
E-K said...

PS, Thud.

The Russians did what you wanted. They gave up control of those states. They recanted their belief in Communism. They tore down the statues. What more could they have done ?

And still they got treated like shit by Nato and the EU.

So Putin's got his "Fuck you" in before you did and rightly. This is entirely our fault.

Frankly I'd incinerate the lot of us if I were him. We're a bunch of spoilt man-boy sixth formers.

Give him his Nato free buffer zones.

Make a pact that he well not venture back into them in exchange - and treat his people with more respect.

DJK said...

The Telegraph this morning carries an account of a Russian tank being destroyed by a British supplied NLAW anti-tank weapon --- complete with Ukranian soldier rather improbably tugging his forelock and saying "Gawd save the Queen".

The UK supposedly supplied 2,000 units to Ukraine. Some of them will be fired at Russian tanks, but I imagine that when the Ukranian forces surrender in a few day's time, most of these systems will be handed over to the Russians. Is that a good use of British taxpayers' money?

Thud said...

Kev, not sure why you hate us all so much, I love UKEngland, Europe and the west, for all our faults we are the place in the world most people want to live and thrive in...again fuck Putin and his band of thieving co killers.

Thud said...

Any sovereign country wishing to join any organisation should have that choice, Putin should not get to dictate about buffer zones etc....they are not his decisions to make, thats how democracy works, he will finish off Ukraine but it will be his end too.

DJK said...

Thud: It's not necessary to hate others so you can love this country. The truly British way to get back at Putin & co would be to mock them. (See "Lambeth Walk - Nazi Style", 1942)

Sobers said...

"We're a bunch of spoilt man-boy sixth formers."

Thats exactly it. The West is no longer serious. The West has become a toxic mix of those who hate their own countries, those utterly divorced from reality, and those who are quite happy to carpet bomb other countries from 30,000 feet, in the name of 'security from terrorism'. Terrorism that only affects us because they have imported the terrorists into our midst in the first place.

We are no longer 'the good guys', we're as bad as Putin in reality. Putin may rule Russia with an iron fist, you try going against the ruling class in any 'democracy' and you'll soon find your life in tatters. Ask Julian Assange. Indeed ask the Canadian truckers. We invade and bomb countries at the drop of a hat, we subject our entire populations to surveillance that would make Big Brother blush. We live on a shared mental image of us as the great saviours of world freedom and democracy, that might have been true in the immediate post war period, but soon reality that super hero cape was in tatters 30 years ago, and since 9/11 has been ripped off entirely.

The West is now a preening bully, it just thinks its a shining knight.

Sobers said...

And when I say 'The West' I mean its ruling classes, not the populations at large. Its blatantly clear that the West's ruling classes hate a large proportion (possibly a majority) of their own fellow countrymen and would happily see them dead.

Thud said...

DJK, perhaps harry styles etc could sing a mocking song, I'm sure that would do the trick, until then I'll stick with my lifelong detestation of all things commie/soviet/new russia it keeps me occuppied....unlike the Ukraine at present.

Elby the Beserk said...

@Sobers

Yup to all you write.

As for "Make ****** Great Again", it seems dissident Kiwis are wearing MAGA caps

Make
Ardern
Go
Away

What a mess. Everywhere.

E-K said...

Sobers - And Putin IS a killer. I mean literally. He can kill most men with his bare hands even at 70 and I don't doubt he would do it.

I respect that and so should we all. He's not some flabby bluffer.

Does it make me bad ?

E-K said...

Thud

Some countries are on geo-political fault lines as others are on tectonic ones.

Bad luck for them, I'm afraid.

We may try to help enforce their rights but it will cost us dearly and a reminder: Ukraine is not a particularly pleasant country either. It harbours a Nazi battalion and the BBC hides it from you.

I don't hate our people btw but I do understand why others hate us.

Thud said...

Kev, I doubt anybody does not know who and what the azov battalion is and even so can right wingers not love their country? the azov guys are no doubt fighting and bleeding for their country right now you know not just typing and moaning...fighting. As for Putin and his super powers, he looks like my wifes grandmother crossed with steven seagal....bare hands my arse.

andrew said...

EK, not bad, mistaken.

A lot of Harold Shipman's patients thought he was a great doctor, so kind and caring.
Hitler (BQ can correct me) had quite a lot of support in the uk in the early years of the war.
None of the people who thought those things were bad, just mistaken. I think the passage of time will show that Putin is someone is someone who does not deserve respect, I may be wrong but dont think so.

Anyone who tells lies routinely should not be in power.

You may be able to run an Autarchy like that
but you cannot run an advanced capitalist economy unless you can expect people to have a basic level of truthfulness and to obey the same set of rules. Otherwise commerce - capitalism - becomes too expensive to maintain.

If you disagree, please lend me £50, I will pay it back. honest.



Elby the Beserk said...

andrew said...
EK, not bad, mistaken.

Hitler (BQ can correct me) had quite a lot of support in the uk in the early years of the war.
============================================
Amongst the ruling classes, yes.

Anonymous said...

"Anyone who tells lies routinely should not be in power."

Does that include Boris, or Biden. Or any western politician over the last several decades. All of them liars and dissemblers.
Putin made clear what his red lines were, and they were not unreasonable. A neutral Ukraine not part of a military alliance specifically anti-Russian. Yet western politicians specifically and deliberately kept stepping over them, essentially egging him on to react. Well now he has. Let us hope that ordinary western citizens don't suffer because of the arrogant stupidity of our ruling class.

Sobers said...

"Anyone who tells lies routinely should not be in power."

"you cannot run an advanced capitalist economy unless you can expect people to have a basic level of truthfulness and to obey the same set of rules. "

Lol. Please tell me you're taking the p*ss, because if you're not where have you been for the last 2 years? The theme of the entire covid crisis was people in power getting caught with their pants down, literally, not abiding by the rules they set themselves. Rules for the little people, not for me.

And would that be the same set of rules that has been applied to the Canadian Truckers as was applied to BLM protestors?

Seelby the Berk said...

The anti-vaxxers have revealed themselves as communist lovers

dearieme said...

"Hitler (BQ can correct me) had quite a lot of support in the uk in the early years of the war."

Aye, from the communist trade union people who were strike-happy until the summer of '41. And then they became obstructive again in '44 when Uncle Joe wanted the western allies to occupy German troops but not to advance too far east.

DJK said...

Seelby: It's possible to be both against the Russian invasion of Ukraine and to think that the Russians have good reason to be pissed off about Nato expansion. Brendan O'Neill puts the case nicely in The Spectator.

andrew said...


@anon and sobers,

I hope Johnson has a special place in hell reserved, somewhere near Blair, all it needs to be is a room where no-one finds him funny or interesting.
At least he did not invade another country (unlike the other two), causing many thousands of deaths, but there is time.

I dont know anything much about Biden.
From what little I understand of the canadian truckers, they should have been given space to demonstrate - they were not terrorists or insurrectionists.



E-K said...

I've had the triple jab so wrong again, Seelby. The Russians aren't Communists btw... so double wrong again.

I somehow have been confused with a Putin supporter.

I'm not. But he deserves respect and I'm pointing out that it is we who have wronged Russia, who relinquished Communism and their empire in accordance with the West but have been treated with disdain and without a shred of magnanimity by us.

What is our end game ? The assassination of Putin ? Civil war in a country that has nuclear warheads trained on all of our cities and military bases ?

Thud

I did martial arts all my life up until 45. The only martial arts I really respected were not my own but those based on grappling - a good grappler is the one person I would fear in a fight. Judo and Ju Jitsu - especially Brazillian.

I've grappled many times in training and taking on a well seasoned Judo-ka is like trying to defend against a boa constrictor ! It can be truly terrifying.

YES. One on one and unarmed Putin could destroy every joint in your body, break your back, your neck, turn you into a quadriplegic or strangle you. He could do it with ease in the order he chooses and he is 70.

He rose to the top of the intelligence service in the toughest, nastiest country in the world and ruled for 20 years against a hostile West and hostile insiders by wit, education, guile and physicality.

He is the real deal.

Most unlike the fat faker who runs this country and the senile geriatric who (allegedly) runs the other. His judo instincts are to pounce while his opponent is at his weakest.

The only way to win is to *not* be his opponent.

Tap out. Give him his buffer.

From the hard talk I'm hearing just about everywhere this is not going to happen. I really fear that this is the big one.

I told you at the beginning of the Covid Crisis that the East would be making its move against us sometime soon. Well here it is.





Thud said...

Kev, I see differently on just about everything you said. As for the their move, well its looking rather decrepit and China is starting to distance itself from him. I am enjoying your man crush though on Putin, rather brave of you to come out at such a time but it is rather a thing nowadays so not so unusual I suppose.

Bill Quango MP said...

This is behind the paywall, but ..

William Hague was at the judo with Vladimir Putin.
He echoes a bit of what Kev writes.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/how-we-can-floor-vladimir-putin-the-judo-black-belt-xddfzdcql

Strike when your might is strong and your enemies weak. When they are off balance and intimidated.

Back to old Adolf for a moment. Why did he plough on into war in 1939? Two full years before he was really ready? His army was mostly horse drawn. Stockpiles were low. The navy was a full four years away from being even moderately able to tackle just one of Britain or France, never mind both of them. Italy was not an active ally. Was neutral. As was Japan.

It was the supplies from the USSR, and the semi-alliance with them, that allowed the gamble.

But why do it at all? If Germany had already secured all the oil and wheat and metals it needed, why even go to war at all?

Even striping out all the nazi ideology and wronged nation, etc etc, it was really because he thought he could. It worked on Czechoslovakia. The west made a fuss, but not much else. It might work again. And if it didn’t? If war did occur?
Well, it was coming anyway. If Germany waited until 1941, how much more ready would Britain and France be? And the ussr?
No real point waiting. The allies were slowly raising defence budgets. Why wait if everyone would have more war equipment in 1941?

Same reason Germany got itself into war in 1914. Because the situation was t getting any better in 1915 or 1916. It was getting worse.

In Soviet terms there was a feeling that from the fall of Saigon 1975, to maybe 1983, they could have beaten NATO. They had the numbers and readiness and the plans and the socialism in the western powers, agent COBs. Red robots, etc. The shah of Iran and Jimmy carter 1979. Looking like a good time to go for it.

After 1985, NATO was too strong. And even an all nuclear and chemical first strike would have not assured victory.
The Warsaw Pact lost the arms race. In trying to keep in the race, they lost the ussr. The Afghan war of 1979 was a disaster.

There is a theory, that instead of Afghanistan, take west Germany. Roll across the frontier and take whatever is possible before the 30 -40 days of ammunition and oil and arms runs out.

The west, Europe, USA, was in economic and social turmoil, 1975-1985. More in uk and USA than France, Italy and Germany, but their turn came too. Just a little later.

Putin must recall those plans to really go for it. what did the ussr gain by waiting for the west to sort itself out?
That window of opportunity is not open for long.

Anonymous said...

EK is 110% correct. This was all so avoidable - all Russia wanted was to be left alone - which means not being surrounded by missiles pointed at them and an alliance directed against them. They would have actually liked to have joined NATO and we told them no.

Britain lost half a million people in WW2 and a million in WWI - I can remember as a young man quite a few elderly maiden aunts whose men had been killed. Those wars (especially the First) left deep scars.

Now imagine between 21-27 million of your people dead. They don't fancy a repeat and I can't blame them.

Ukraine have been led up the garden path by (mainly) the US. There was a perfectly good agreement (Minsk 2) which they were encouraged not to implement.

Anyway, Thud, did you oppose the Iraq War? Or the bombing of Serbia by NATO without the slightest mandate? Or the bombing of Libya? Or Syria (which US proxies still control a big chunk of)? Or the Saudis ongoing flattening of whatever's left standing in Yemen? When did we last see tearful Yemeni women and children for 25 minutes of a 30 minutes news broadcast?

Anonymous said...

You can see why Boris and Biden love the chance to strut and preen on the world stage. They are unable (or more probably unwilling) to control their own borders from ongoing invasion, but are happy to scream about Ukraine's.

And it's odd how our mega-tough sanctions don't include gas or oil, which is still being supplied and presumably still being paid for.

You really would think that the great and the good of NATO would query whether it's a good idea to push Russia towards China at such a pace. While I have no quarrel with Russians, I don't see them as a threat or competitor to me and mine. Can't say that about China. We and the States have been sending them our industrial jobs for two or three decades now. Wouldn't it be a pity if all our Chinese routers/phones/switches/microprocessors had backdoors built into them (enabling 3rd party control/espionage), as American routers seem to do?

https://www.theregister.com/2019/05/02/cisco_vulnerabilities/

After WW2 the UK and US, who unknown to the world had cracked Enigma coding machines, handed all their captured ones to their allies, so that said allies could communicate "securely"!

dearieme said...

I'm not Thud but allow me to answer:

Did you oppose the Iraq War? Yes.

Or the bombing of Serbia? Yes.

Or the bombing of Libya? Yes.

Or Syria? Yes.

Or the Saudis ongoing flattening of whatever's left standing in Yemen? I know next to nothing about that but I don't like the sound of it.

Anonymous said...

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/ukraines-deadly-gamble

"Yes, Putin wants to prevent NATO from expanding to Russia’s border. But the larger answer is that he finds the U.S. government’s relationship with Ukraine genuinely threatening. That’s because for nearly two decades, the U.S. national security establishment under both Democratic and Republican administrations has used Ukraine as an instrument to destabilize Russia, and specifically to target Putin.

While the timing of Putin’s attack on Ukraine is no doubt connected to a variety of factors, including the Russian dictator’s read on U.S. domestic politics and the preferences of his own superpower sponsor in Beijing, the sense that Ukraine poses a meaningful threat to Russia is not a product of Putin’s paranoia—or of a sudden desire to restore the power and prestige of the Soviet Union, however much Putin might wish for that to happen. Rather, it is a geopolitical threat that has grown steadily more pressing and been employed with greater recklessness by Americans and Ukrainians alike over the past decade.

That Ukraine has allowed itself to be used as a pawn against a powerful neighbor is in part the fault of Kyiv’s reckless and corrupt political class. But Ukraine is not a superpower that owes allies and client-states judicious leadership—that’s the role of the United States. And in that role, the United States has failed Ukraine. More broadly, the use of Ukraine as a goad against enemies domestic and foreign has recklessly damaged the failing yet necessary European security architecture that America spent 75 years building and maintaining.

Why can’t the American security establishment shoulder responsibility for its role in the tragedy unfolding in Ukraine? Because to discuss American responsibility openly would mean exposing the national security establishment’s role in two separate, destructive coups: the first, in 2014, targeting the government of Ukraine, and the second, starting two years later, the government of the United States."

Thud said...

Cheers Dearieme, you answered pretty much as I would have and anon...maybe Russia shouldnt have gotten into bed with Hitler and destroyed Poland, karma and all that crap.I don't care about history lessons just agitated that people in Ukraine are being killed as I write, all for Putin, does anybody really think this was to protect Russia? thank goodness the rest of the world and the majority of decent Russians have seen through his megalomania.

E-K said...

Thud.

Yup. I have a man crush on Putin so what. At least that makes me *not* a homophobe. The worst thing I can be in the society you love - so I'm OK by the BBC - which ignores Nazis in military action when it suits but pursues them when they don fancy dress in London.

But let's get real here.

China has NOT distanced itself from Putin. It has abstained in the UN Security Council vote... which was the minimal it could do without bringing it into direct conflict with the West. It is, in fact, an utter endorsement of Putin.

Be afraid.

E-K said...

BQ I have fought these types on the mat.

They are trained to sense when you are exhausted.

E-K said...

Thud at 10.08

But as I have said before. Russia gave up on Communism. It relinquished its territories.

It did everything you wanted it to. What more could it have done ?

Yet you miss a step and bang on about an era before ? In that case why is Japan OK ? Why Germany ?

You are leading us to WW3 and the only reason I'm telling you this is that you well know it when the moment comes. I don't think there's any way out now... people are so jacked up.



E-K said...

https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

Read this and weep. Educate yourselves.

We're taking on Russia because we're too weak to take on China. Big mouths and small fists.

I really missed the point here.

China has backed Russia btw. That's what abstension means.

Thud said...

No it does not, it would have opposed it that would not have been seen as pro western.

Anonymous said...

AFAIK Russian gas is still flowing West - including the gas through Ukrainian pipelines! - and AFAIK Euro governments are still paying for it.

It's an interesting question - who's more afraid - Europeans that they'll have no gas, or Russia that they won't get the cash?

This is one of those horrible phony wars were real people die but the big boys backing them are doing profitable deals with each other.

Elby the Beserk said...

Seelby the Berk said...
The anti-vaxxers have revealed themselves as communist lovers
5:04 pm
==============================

Your name is very appropriate.

Nick Drew said...

In various pronouncements, Germans have been pretending they can get through this winter without Russian gas

errrr, no they can't - not without serious domestic ramifications. Nor Italy, nor Austria. & that's before we bother to list the "Eastern Eu" countries

and we'd feel the keen wind of wholly unaffordable prices, too - even if there isn't the keen wind of a cold snap

The Beast From The East, indeed

DJK said...

I see that Fraser Nelson in the Speccie is echoing Boris and saying we should open our doors to all Ukranians who want to come here. This, he says, would show that Britain is an ally worth having. Is he really sure that Ukraine is an ally that Britain should have? He's certainly happy to make Russia (and by extension, China) even more of an enemy than they are already.

To be sure, Ukrainians are more deserving of our help than the young men who pay to cross the channel in small dinghies, but even so, there have to some limits.

Don Cox said...

The Hungarians who came here in 1956 to escape the Russian invasion have merged in well and been a good addition to the population. I think Ukranians would be fine.

The problem is the very large number of people with a non-European background, who in my experience are perfectly OK as individuals, but I doubt if they will ever be a part of English society. (I can't speak for Scotland or Wales.) The same applied to all those British colonists in the Empire.

Don Cox

DJK said...

Well yes, if we must have more people (because it's not as if there's a housing shortage, is there?) then people from Western Ukraine should eventually fit in quite well.

Anonymous said...

Bit moot now anyway.

“ Vladimir Putin says he is moving the country's nuclear deterrent to "special alert"

Global warming freaks can relax. Nuclear war will save the planet.

Anonymous said...

From the perspective of the Russians;
https://www.rusemb.org.uk/

I note that RT.com has only just come back online and that the Kremlin website is likely under sustained DDos attack.

It's remarkable and scary the sheer amount of blatant propaganda being pushed out by western media, and the people that are ready and willing to believe it.

Sadly, the UK acts like America's lapdog. No doubt we're involved up to our necks in it, to an extent that the British public will never be allowed to know.

It’s all a conspiracy against me said...

Anon

Western media is showing the Russians invading Ukraine. For the second time. It’s on the tv, live.

Is this fake news?
Is it manipulated images?
Is it really France invading?
Or Latvia?

Or maybe Ukraine forced the Russians by attacking Moscow with air and missile strikes?

Or what?

dearieme said...

At least Putin doesn't seem to have cited this episode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMtLknSFXa8

Anonymous said...

DJK - Fraser Nelson is just a BoJo with better table manners. He's another globalist. Remember Boris wanted Turkey in the EU - that same Turkey which invaded and still holds half of Cyprus, that same Turkey which invaded and still holds a chunk of Syria, that same Turkey which helps Azerbijan against the Armenians (whom they previously genocided in 1915).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide

Anonymous said...

I wouldn't object however if Boris offered humanitarian sanctuary to the young women of Ukraine, as the young men will all be at the front.

I myself am prepared to make the sacrifice of caring for several lissome blondes. We all have to do our bit at times like these.

DJK said...

Anon: I do remember that BoJo was keen for Turkey to join the EU --- reuniting the major parts of the former Roman Empire within the EU, as he put it at the time. Fraser Nelson is a globalist, for sure, but I think he's been pushing for fellow globalist Sunak to replace BoJo.

Personally I'm fed up with the continuation of a New Labour government. At this point, I think we may as well give Starmer and the comrades a go instead.

Anonymous said...

DJK - but Starmer is just as big a globalist as any Sunak or Truss.

Whoever you vote for, the UniParty wins.

Anonymous said...

I see that the SWIFT sanctions, so trumpeted by our media, specifically rule out any action against energy-related transactions, so it looks as if the oil and gas will keep flowing.

It's almost as if neither side wants to push this too far, which is a good thing. But there are plenty of voices calling for total SWIFT ban, which means a total energy embargo. Madness, and one that would bring total war a step nearer.

As a public service and in case the lunatics get their way, here's a public service announcement.

https://www.oism.org/nwss/

"Nuclear War Survival Skills, Updated and Expanded, 1987 Edition, Cresson H. Kearny, With Foreword by Dr. Edward Teller, Original Edition Published September, 1979, by Oak Ridge National Laboratory, a Facility of the U.S. Department of Energy, Published by the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, Cave Junction, Oregon"

https://www.england.nhs.uk/publication/patient-group-directions-pgds-potassium-iodate-and-potassium-iodide/

Funnily enough both the NHS docs were updated in January 2022. Coincidence?

Seelby the Berk said...

‘Your name is very appropriate’ LOL

E-K said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
E-K said...

Thud

Putin understands power, unlike our own leaders.

E-K said...

I still have my father's Nuclear War Contingencies Manual which he carried as an outrider with a Mobile Command and Control Unit in the sixties.

It may be of use.

I cannot see how we're not going to war now. Hope you all think Ukraine (which has been murdering Russians for 8 years now) is worth it.

And your sacrifice is for the EU which wants that country BTW.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10556813/President-lose-grip-power-doesnt-Ukraine-says-minister.html

I made a prediction to my mate (a Lefty) at the beginning of the Covid crisis that our reaction to it would signal our weakness to the East, that we would go to war and that we and our loved ones would all be dead within two years.

I have repeatedly expressed the view that we were sending the wrong message here. I held back from the more hysterical view.

It turns out I'm only going to be out on the prediction to my mate by a few months.

Thud said...

Kev, take it easy.

E-K said...

Will do.

But all it would take is to forget this meeting with Zelenskyy.

A pact must be made between Nato and Russia bypassing him.

Nato "OK. We won't allow Ukraine to join. Now please withdraw."

Take any chance of joining that or the EU away from them. They are on a geo-political fault line ... sorry, but that's life.

Fat chance ! The media is on a war footing and our leaders can't be seen to back down now.

And btw. If Putin is Hitler then we created him ... EXACTLY as we did the first. Exactly !

History repeats and we never learn from it.

Sobers said...

Eisenhower had it right 60 years ago, with his prescient warning about the military industrial complex. Who needs wars the most? The armed forces (to justify their existence), the companies who make the arms (to make profits) and the ruling classes (who profit from investments in the companies who make arms). Remove wars or threats of wars from the equation and all those people are out of a job and/or out of pocket. There's too many vested interests for there to be peace nowadays.

DJK said...

It's being reported that Ursula von der Leyen has blundered in, trying to get Ukraine admitted to the EU immediately. Meanwhile I've been reading on the FT about how the US is freezing Russian central bank FX reserves, probably as a prelude to confiscating them (as they did with Venezuela and Afghanistan).

Way to go. When you have a desperate man armed with nukes, double down and back him further into a corner.

Caeser Hēméra said...

We've tried various levels of appeasement with Putin and Russia. It doesn't work, not for Russia, not for the old satellites states and not for the West.

There is the repeating pattern - Russia expands on a dodgy pretext, old Soviet states move further into the West's arms as a consequence, Russia gets more annoyed. Appeasement only look like it could work if you confuse the reaction for the action.

And we have the nukes threats. The person who wants to kick the board over in rage is not the person who feels they're doing well. Winners don't do that because, well, they're winning.

So far the invasion of Ukraine has made NATO relevant again, made Germany take the military seriously again, has Japan musing allowing nukes on their soil, got the EU operating like a serious political body, gotten usually pro-Russian nations to align with the West and some members of the CSTO declining to help out.

It's little comfort should nuclear war break out, but Putin has discovered his conventional limits on the global stage and is having trouble accepting them.

Anonymous said...

"Russia expands on a dodgy pretext, old Soviet states move further into the West's arms as a consequence, Russia gets more annoyed."

What a pile of steaming lies. Russia gave up control of all of Eastern Europe around 1990, allowed Soviet republics to secede amazingly peacefully.

NATO expands into those former Soviet republics. And turns down Russia when she asks to join.

DJK said...

I'm not quite there with E-K in predicting a coming nuclear Winter. Then again, nobody expected war in July/August 1914. Maybe Putin will back down or be deposed, then Ukraine can be admitted to the EU/NATO, American forces can move up to the Russian border (perhaps even occupy Crimea?) And then we can move on to a colour revolution in Russia itself.

But if, as Patrick Armstrong says, "Putin feels that he is making a pre-emptive attack to stop June 1941" then we either need to find a way to let the Russians back down with some dignity, or face war with Russia itself.

Elby the Beserk said...

andrew said...

@anon and sobers,

I hope Johnson has a special place in hell reserved, somewhere near Blair, all it needs to be is a room where no-one finds him funny or interesting.
At least he did not invade another country (unlike the other two), causing many thousands of deaths, but there is time.

6:27 pm
===========================

No, indeed, far worse. Goivt figures assess the number of deaths due to lockdown, i.e. the PM, at around 200,000

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/07/19/lockdown-may-cost-200k-lives-government-report-shows/

And given we now know, again from govt figures, that the number of deaths FROM Covid (not the nonsensical "with Covid" figures which tell us NOTHING) is less than 7k from Feb 2020 to Dec 2021 - average c10 PER DIEM, one might say that Johnson is a mass murderer. No? With a little help from his friends, sure.

And of course, add to the 200,000 dead from lockdown, who knows how many from the clotshots? MHRA say 2000, but also say they believe only 10% of fatalities are reported. So add c20k deaths (so far, excess mortality is ROCKETING all over the West) to that, as a result of Johnson's "Completely safe" vaccines (gene therapies actually, with papers now showing the mess with your DNA. Not mine. I'm not stupid)

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/covid19deathsandautopsiesfeb2020todec2021

dearieme said...

@Elby The fact that lockdown was a stupid, reckless, hysterical over-reaction of a policy doesn't alter the fact that there was a nasty little epidemic in the Spring of 2020. The number of excess deaths was far higher than 17,000.

Just look at the graph here, absorb the lesson, and stop talking shite.
https://dailysceptic.org/2022/02/27/januarys-age-standardised-mortality-rate-was-the-second-lowest-on-record%EF%BF%BC/

E-K said...

Dearieme - That figure truly reflects my own experience.

12 dead among friends, relatives and workmates. None from Covid. ALL from illnesses that either should have been spotted or because of cancelled consultations for those that were spotted.

I have never known a death rate like it.

--------

Lynn Truss.

Jesus.

"I support every Brit who goes to fight Putin. He is a threat to democracy in the whole of Europe."

Well then.

WW3 it is if that's what's being voiced behind Cabinet doors.

Ursula von Leyden gives the game away. "Take Ukraine into the EU now." Never wastes a crisis, this EU, does it !

Pity we didn't take Russian into Nato.

Ooops. Forgot. That organisation was created to kill Russians, wasn't it ?

E-K said...

DJK

World wars happen by accident. On geo-political fault lines. It's just a matter of time now.

Plenty of feet being put in it (Lynn Truss, von Leyderhosen)


Western leaders are being backed into a corner by hysterical MSM/Twitter/Celebrity virtue signallers/polls.... as much as Putin is being backed into his corner by a badly managed invasion by sanctions and rich Russian hard men demanding his removal.

Even if he's removed.

An unstable and heavily armed nuclear state ?


-------

Yet another example of MSM/BBC shit stirring (as well as completely ignoring one whole side of the story)

"Hero protester stops Russian tank column on foot."

No. The tank commander stopped the tank column because he is NOT a monster.

This is not how they want you to think though.

Anonymous said...

It looks as if Kiev is completely surrounded. On Saturday John Sweeney said the streets were empty and it was very quiet - no bombing or shelling.

Thud said...

I've thought from the beginning Russia would achieve its aim on the ground but be bloodied, well I still do but the cost is higher than they or I believed, still think Putin is toast one way or the other further down the line. Some sort of negotiated peace seems to be the best result, I'd imagine plenty of off the record talks between Russia, China and the west going on.

Anonymous said...

Seems that the Anglo-Saxons (UK/US) are the problem for Putin and the EU, though confused, is friendlier to the Russian sphere of influence.

This the the "victory" article published on 26th Feb after Russia allegedly absorbed the Ukrainian people.

https://web.archive.org/web/20220226051154/https://ria.ru/20220226/rossiya-1775162336.html


Elby the Beserk said...

@Elby The fact that lockdown was a stupid, reckless, hysterical over-reaction of a policy doesn't alter the fact that there was a nasty little epidemic in the Spring of 2020. The number of excess deaths was far higher than 17,000.

Just look at the graph here, absorb the lesson, and stop talking shite.
https://dailysceptic.org/2022/02/27/januarys-age-standardised-mortality-rate-was-the-second-lowest-on-record%EF%BF%BC/

11:16 am
=============================

So it was a terrible epidemic with very low standardised mortality, you mean? OK. Really. Can't be bothered. You fell for that "deaths with Covid" crap didn't you, as the govt intended.

A nasty little epidemic does NOT kill just 10 people a day, fuck's sake.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/covid19deathsandautopsiesfeb2020todec2021